Fashion commentary?
Those of you who have been reading the comments section in the previous post know that there is quite a debate about fashion/attractiveness going among the diaspora/international community. Apparently everyone would rather discuss fashion than the kindness of people in Serbia, so here's my 2 cents.First off, most of my friends would tell you that "fashionable" is probably one of the last words they would use to describe me. I don't think any of them would say I was a slob, but my couture leaves a lot to be desired. And really, there is only one explanation for this: I'm just not that interested. In this world, some people like spending their money on new clothes and others on airline tickets to exotic new places (I think Serbwife readers know which type I am).
This is not to say that I don't pay attention to societal clues and dress appropriately for my location; it's just that I don't spend money filling my closet with the latest fashions. I'm more of a Ann Taylor/J.Crew type. I like plain colors that match and I keep my clothes for years and years.
However, I do agree with points made by some in the comments section. I certainly think people should pay attention to societal clues and learn how to dress appropriately for the place they are living or the situation they are in. For instance, if you attend a wedding in the US, you are going to dress differently than if you attend a wedding in India. If you go to a club in Serbia, jeans could be considered appropriate, but in the US would not be. A woman walking down the street in a mini-skirt would be considered attractive in Argentina, but a whore in Indonesia. A baseball game would be a perfect place for shorts and a T-shirt; work would not (unless, of course, you're a computer programmer and never see anyone all day). I think all people, fashionable or not, should learn to dress for the occasion. Although this is open to interpretation depending where you live.
I do not, however, accept the comment that "Americans have given up on their appearance." How can a generalization be made about 300 million people? It really depends on who you're talking about. If you've ever walked down Fifth Avenue in New York City, there's no way in hell you could say that Americans have given up on their appearance. Every time I go to NYC I have to make sure to bring my super-fancy "NYC clothes" just to keep up (and I still always feel like a slob next to my fashionable friends there). And I have NEVER been to a wedding (in America) where everyone didn't dress up (men in suits, womens in dresses). To say that Americans just don't dress well would just be ignorant of the nuances. Do we dress the same as they do in Europe? No. Do we believe that we have to dress up to go to the mall? Generally, no. Do we believe that we have to dress up to walk in the park? Definitely, no. Run errands on the weekend? No. But do we believe that you should "dress for success" at work? Absolutely. Do we believe that you should wear a suit to a job interview? Yes. (That, I might add, is a custom that has definitely not made it to Serbia.)
But as someone who grew up in a state that loves the outdoors - and outdoor clothing, there is certainly something to be said for the beauty of a classic fleece jacket, a pair of jeans and some hiking boots. I mean, really, I can't think of a better looking guy than one that looks good in that outfit. But when it comes down to it, it's just a matter of taste. I don't see many "outdoorsy men" walking down the street in Serbia, but does that mean I've never seen a good looking guy here? No way! There are plenty. But the same is true in the US. In my opinion, a good looking guy is one who carries himself well, not one who wears a certain kind of clothes. There are some people in this world who look good in the (as Americans call it) "euro-trash" look. You know, thin men wearing tight jeans and all black (a la David Beckham, yum!) And there are some who are totally hot in a ripped T-shirt and jeans (a la Brad Pitt). These kinds of tastes really can't be narrowed down to one nationality or another.
Perhaps the difference in the way we dress has more to do with the economic situation than anything else. When you have just a little money, you might spend more on clothes in order to look richer than you are. When you have plenty of money, you may not need to prove anything and therefore don't need to show off by always having new fancy clothes. Kind of like the "lace curtain Irish" mentality.
In general, when it comes down to judging attractiveness, I usually think that people see whatever it is they are looking for. If you think all you'll see is slumpy, dorky men, then that's probably all you'll see. If you're looking for hot girls, then you'll tend to focus on them and forget about all the dumpy ones. So if you want to meet good looking people where you live, my only advice would be to have "open eyes."
posted by Brooke @ 1:40 PM
13 Comments:
Still, I traveled everywhere in the USA and people dont dress well at all..even if they go to work! And jeans are not always ok in Belgrade, but are OK in the USA--americans go in flipflops to a club (LA setting)!! And as far as NYC dressing goes, Brooke thats the only exception in the USA..and even there I think they need to catch up with Paris fashion! One more thing, I dont think (in general, for all people) you should be a fashionista, but you should care how you look and try to have nice clothes and to match colors well. Also,no excuses such as cant wear high heels..PLS. The USA has so many cool things, but sorry eating a good food and matching and caring to wear decent clothes is NOT one of your things--and perhaps thats one of the most important things in Europe, Japan, Argentina etc..Enough said about this topic.
I would argue that wearing high heels makes about as much sense as wearing a corset. 200 years from now when people are looking at high-heeled shoes displayed in a museum they are going to wonder why we would have ever put ourselves through such torture just for the sake of "beauty".
As far as important things to discuss in this world, is there anyone else here that thinks fashion is extremely low on the list?
Hi all,
For a moment there -- I thought I must have posted a comment at the wrong post. The one that ended up in a discussion about fashion was actually a very noteworthy one about a car accident.
I agree with Isaac -- the original post was very interesting and positive, and somehow it got lost in a ranting discussion. Perhaps we should figure out how any discussion in Serbia (or aboout Serbia) ends up like this.
I don't say this without humor -- I remember discussions in my own family starting with a light conversation about everyday things and ending up as heated debates about the world politics and the future of the world in general.
Of course, bringing the British aspect to the discussion was hardly helpful.
Dear Brooke, your patience here's commendable and thanks for (still) sharing your observations with us.
Cheers all,
Milica
OMG people..chill out! i think a post is great..whatever..why do you have to be so serious about everything?? This post can be easily linked to living in belgrade and how brooke sees fashion there(its not out of nowhere as some refer)..fashion is discussed in the usa all the time and how americans are te slobs when it comes to it.(not to mention the UK--the bottom..)Actually, I want to hear more about it from Brooke.I think this blog is not only about politics and how bad it is in serbia blah blah..we all heard it before..lets hear stuff like dating in serbia and fashion and music and all the fun things!! whooo oho! ps.brooke, what do you think about the serbian movies and do you get the humor?
I was once a totally clothes-apathetic American. Then I spent ten months living in Italy. After that I was conscious of the fact that I dressed poorly, but most of the time didn't care enough to dress up. Then I spent nine months in Serbia. Generally, I would say that Serbs don't dress as formally as a lot of their neighbors (e.g. Hungarians), but they dress more fashionably. Living there, I tended to put more effort into dressing well, and I've kept a lot of those habits now that I'm back in the USA.
For the record, Brooke is right - at weddings in the USA, everyone wears suits and dresses. Observing families taking wedding photos outside the Skupština in Kragujevac, though, I once saw a family that included a young woman wearing a white sweater and tight white jeans, and a young man wearing baggy jeans and a rock 'n' roll tee shirt. There are slobs everywhere.
As a temporary Angeleno I most vehemently protest agains the above 'flip-flops to a club' notion because it is not true. People here do not generally wear flip-flops in clubs, they do not. I also think (and can't wait) that the heels will be discarded as completely ridiculous.
La storia: you can protest as much as you want..I was "there"--LA and SF when I had Americans trying to go into a club with flipflops..CANNOT say it is not TRUE..speak for yourself, not generally!
This isnt something thats much spoken about in Serbia except in the context of Pink television overdoing it with the kitch studios and clothes their dancing girls are told to wear. Just remembered there was some discussion of fashion in Serbia relatively recently with designers Ognjenovic, Asok Muti. They said things I generally agree with.
I seem to remember Zarko Korac making a point about how the average Serbian politician is pretty badly dressed. Then again arent they slobbish in most countries?
Something else to bear in mind when talking about Serbian dressing habits is the tendancy for Serb(ians) to think they are well dressed when they are wearing brand names (mind you they are not alone in this). And that most of those brand names are fakes bought in markets. So economics is a big part of it. But I do wish that more people would understand that looking good is improvising, matching colours, finding bits and pieces in a combination that nobody else or few people are wearing. Its not about copying everybody else like clones.
At least that is the kind of thing that gets my attention anyway.
So the comments on the Dutch is true - I'm pretty much knocked out by that relaxed individualistic style. Looks like no effort at all but it does it for me. (This isnt a reference to the red light district in Amsterdam btw).
Anonimous, keep your hair on, okay? It's not that serious (which the phrase 'vehemently protest' kind of implies), maybe there are clubs in LA where people go in flip-flops, I wouldn't know.
I regret that some people found my original comments about the differences between people you see walking down the street in America and in Serbia (or any part of former Yugoslavia for that matter) offensive and shallow. Unfortunately, those people missed the point — I’ll take the blame and assume that I wasn’t clear — and jumped on me for bringing “fashion” into the discussion. That wasn’t it all. What got me thinking about it was that Brooke is evidently becoming fond of the Serbian people, as evidenced in her positive experience with the woman who accidentally hit her car, and it came to mind that Serbs do get under your skin and once you know them you miss them if you’re not around them, and that led to the feeling I remember and get back every time I’m on any street in Serbia. I don’t have that feeling in America, for whatever reason, and I thought it was worth posing the question and maybe discussing it. However this “discussion” went into a very different direction (again, why not blame myself, most of you did) because the fashion bandwagon is what everyone, or most, jumped on. Just to finish with the “fashion” comments, I would just like to underscore some things that were said.
//Brooke said: In general, when it comes down to judging attractiveness, I usually think that people see whatever it is they are looking for.//
Well, since my cousin was precisely looking to see some attractive men on the streets in the San Francisco Bay Area and didn’t see one in 5 months that made her heart skip a beat, prompting her comment to me, that is rather contrary to the above statement.
//Daniel said “at weddings in the USA, everyone wears suits and dresses”.//
Not my experience, especially recently when I can’t begin to describe to you how ridiculously and weirdly some people were dressed at a wedding I went to, so appallingly dressed as be insulting to the bride and groom.
//Brooke said: Do we believe that you should wear a suit to a job interview? Yes. (That, I might add, is a custom that has definitely not made it to Serbia.)//
Sorry, Brooke, but it hasn't made it all over California, either. You should have been a fly on the wall of my office when I’ve interviewed candidates the last few years – apparently, you’d have been shocked at what Californians will wear in that situation.
//Brooke said: When you have just a little money, you might spend more on clothes in order to look richer than you are. When you have plenty of money, you may not need to prove anything and therefore don't need to show off by always having new fancy clothes. Kind of like the "lace curtain Irish" mentality.//
Yes, I think there is truth in that, and it's kind of like the story John Steinbeck related about his handyman, that I alluded to.
And, finally, I’ll repeat my earlier comment to reiterate that this topic was less about fashion than about something else that was never discussed:
//The clothes are only a symptom of the underlying state of mind.//
You are welcome to put any topic you like to rest -- obviously. It's probably time to put this one away, especially since the level of reading comprehension of some, not all, but defintely some, who come here seems to be shallower than the topic (as they interpreted it) supposedly was.
I completly agree with BG anon. In Serbia, (in Russia, in parts of Africa, and elsewhere) many equate brands (real or fake) with good taste. It does have a lot to do with the economy and general mindest. Unfortunately, brands will not buy you originality, creativity, comfort, and certainly won't buy you good taste - just have a look at some of the stuff shown on catwalks - completely ridiculous and unwearable! But on catwalks that's the point - when it becomes something you strive to emulate in REAL LIFE where you have to drive, shop, live, then it can become a bit scary!
De gustibus non est disputandum people - as long as it's not offensive to others - (although offensive can also be a matter of total subjectivity!
Another thing I noticed, supporting the idea that different cultures have different standards for what's "presentable" when you go out: In the southern U.S., women will often go out in sweatsuits but feel indecent without perfect makeup.
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